Episode 7: How to Manage Countertransference When Working with Clients with Bavly Kost

Kayla: Welcome back to Your Clinical Supervisor’s Couch Podcast, and I’m your host, Kayla Das.

As a therapist countertransference will, without a doubt, show up at some point during your practice career, if it hasn’t already.

In today’s episode, Bavly Kost, Registered Psychotherapist and Clinical Supervisor, will discuss how to manage countertransference when working with clients.

Hi, Bavly. Welcome to the show. I’m so glad to have you here today.

Bavly: Thank you so much for having me, Kayla. I’m honored and I’m excited to be here. So, thank you for having me.

Kayla: Amazing. So, Bavly before we dive into today’s episode, please introduce yourself and tell us a little bit about your practice and clinical supervision journey.

Bavly: Thank you. So, yeah, my name is Bavli Kost and I’ve been in the industry for about 10 years now. I first got into therapy when I was studying for my master’s in theology. I trained to be a teacher, a high school teacher, actually. And at the time living in Ontario and in the Toronto region, I had graduated in 2012. There weren’t really a lot of jobs at the time.

So, I really loved philosophy and theology at the time, during my undergrad, I double majored in religious studies and history. And so, I pursued it further to expand my religion teachable at the time. I had a religion as a teachable. And when I was doing my first master’s, that’s when I found out about therapy in the hospital setting. I’m a spiritually integrated psychotherapist, and so I was introduced to that, and I became a spiritual care practitioner through that avenue and stream. So, I pursued it I studied abroad, I came back to Toronto, and I pursued my training to be a spiritually integrated psychotherapist and spiritual care practitioner.

And I’ve been doing it ever since for 10 years. I’ve been also doing some private practice work as well supervision. I’ve been doing it for almost five years now. And that’s a little bit about me. I have another master’s of psychospiritual care from Emmanuel college at the university of Toronto. I did that part time from 2017 to 2019. And that’s my journey and where I’m at right now. So, been doing it 10 years. I work in a hospital setting. I do some private practice work and I love every minute of it.

Kayla: Fabulous. So, I know today we’re going to talk about counter transference. So, what is it and what are common signs that may indicate that a therapist may be experiencing counter transference?

Bavly: Countertransference, I always find that people have a few definitions or they look at it very differently. For me and through my own experience, the way I would define countertransference is how a therapist is feeling and reacting to certain elements within the therapeutic process and rapport with a client.

When it comes to feelings and emotions as being the bedrock of what we do in therapy, it could be feeling uncomfortable, it could be feeling tense, it could be feeling numb in your body. The physical symptoms of it. Internally, it could be, you might be at a loss of words, you might be drawn to your client a little bit more than the usual. That can take on many different forms, it could be extending session time with a client. It could be communicating with them during off hours, it could take on many different forms.

And so, for me, counter transference is how the therapist is responding to the client, either what they’re saying, what they’re wearing, how they’re looking potentially. And it could be many different things like that. So, it’s what is happening for the therapist within the with the client.

Kayla: That’s really interesting. So, what are some of the impacts of experiencing counter transference within the therapeutic relationship?

Bavly: I believe one of the major things is, of course, as therapists, is the fact that sometimes when it does develop, we are not self-aware of it. And so that could potentially lead into a slippery slope. And being aware of it is very important. And the most important thing as it does occur is asking yourself, what’s happening inside of me? So having that self-awareness. As CRPO likes to call it safe and effective use of self. I like to use the word self-awareness. The one of the governing bodies that belong to in the old competencies that we had, they called it self-awareness. Now they call it professional identity. And being aware of it as it comes up.

What I usually did was usually talk to my supervisor. I’ll give you a funny story. When I first started out my career, I was on a mental health unit and I was seeing a female client. Who was around the same age, so that was in my early 20s, and she told me that she loved me. She had feelings for me. Okay. So, I got scared. So, it wasn’t necessarily counter transference on my end. But something that I had absorbed from her transference that occurred.

So, I went back to my supervisor saying, I’m not going to see her. I’m not going to support her or do anything. I am afraid. And right away, I thought I was afraid of being kicked out of the internship I was in. And he looked at me, he smiled and said, well, you’re going back in there. You’re actually going to talk to her and to figure out what’s going on because it has nothing to do with you. She might think you’re looking attractive, but that has nothing to do with that. There’s something else that’s happening on the inside for her.

So, build up the courage, went back and spoke to her. And of course, with the themes that she shared with me of a recent relationship ending, missing her brother, and father and a culmination of these things led to her saying, hey, I have feelings for you, which were not really authentic. But rooted in a deeper, more intimate emotional wound and injury that she had.

And so, countertransference works the same way for therapists. There’s a deeper need that’s being unmet that now we are drawing on and putting and latching on to our client. So that could be romantic. It could be anything, right? It could be financial. Providing lower pay for a client. It could be them reminding us of a certain family member. It can be a slew of different things. And so, the first thing I always tell my interns and people I supervise. Let me know what’s happening. We’ll discuss it. There’s never a right or wrong as it comes up, right? Let’s discuss it. Let’s see what’s going on and identify why you’re feeling this way.

Kayla: That sounds like a very challenging situation to be in as a new therapist. Yet, it sounds like it was definitely a learning opportunity for you.

Bavly: It was and I share this story a lot in many different scenarios because that moment actually allowed me to almost find my own identity as a therapist and who I wanted to be. Because at the time I was very fearful of, ethical things. As any young junior therapist is they’re afraid and there’s a lot of fear of anything that happens, especially when a client expresses feelings for the therapist. Or the other way around the therapist might feel a little bit attracted to a client. So at the beginning having ethics at the back of my mind, these are things that we constantly work with.

And I would say just bring it to your supervisor, just like I brought it to mine and he supported me in a very safe and effective way and helped me kind of grow in that. And that’s probably the most important thing is sharing it with a supervisor or someone who’s going to support you in your professional journey.

Kayla: Yeah, so when countertransference shows up, what should therapists do to manage or address the countertransference that they’re experiencing?

Bavly: I would say in live time, in the therapy session with their clients, if they are feeling that countertransference, the first thing I would try to do is reflect on it internally. Put it in a box and then put it to a corner. And note it. If you’re taking notes in the session to come back to this later on, to see what’s going on, bring it to your supervisor, bring it to someone that you can consult with. And that’s what I would do in the moment.

Sometimes countertransference can be very strong in the session, and I always get this question a lot from junior therapists. What can I do to address it? It’s so strong that it’s not allowing me to focus on anything else but this thing in the session. Usually, the way I guide interns with is it’s say, bring it up with the client, right? You’re taking a chance and a risk, but there’s a way to bring it up. I always tell my supervisees, find your relational language. Relational language is very important to the therapeutic rapport.

I’ll give you one example. This is a common one, I would say. Not common, but one that can come up pretty frequently is a client is discussing a death of a loved one, a family member, a friend, and then the therapist themselves might feel some strong countertransference because they recently dealt with a death of a loved one, a family member, or a friend themselves. So, the countertransference can be very strong there. And sometimes as a therapist, we feel, well, I want to share this with the client. I want to share it with them. And if the feelings are too strong, you can say something to the effect of opening up and telling them, you know, death is something that’s very common. And I’ve dealt with a death recently, and there’s a lot of similarities in the story that you’re sharing with me. So, you can share what is on your mind? But don’t make it about yourself, right? Bring it back to the client. So, in that situation, you’re letting them know there’s a death that’s occurred because your counter transfers so strong. But then the final part of that is saying, how does that make you feel to know that death will occur. Something to that extent, right? Of course, there’s a relationship with the client. So, you’ll be able to know how to phrase that question, but always bringing it back and making it about them. So that’s one way if the counter transference is too strong. But I always advise my supervisees, if you can park it, put it to a corner in your mind and a box. And then bring it up in supervision, that’s the way to explore.

Kayla: Amazing. That’s really great advice. I’m sure there are times when therapists don’t even recognize that they’re experiencing countertransference. So, in this case, if a therapist doesn’t recognize it. But the clinical supervisor does, how does the clinical supervisor help the therapist recognize and address the countertransference?

Bavly: That’s a great question. The first question I always ask my therapists and my supervisees is what’s happening for you? They come to me. They share a client case. And they’re very emotional. Very, very emotional. You’re allowed to be emotional, right? We are working with vulnerable people. We ourselves as therapists are becoming vulnerable as well. And so, emotions and feelings are at the bedrock of what we do.

And so, I’ll give you an example. I recently had one of my supervisees come to me talking to me about a client. She felt stuck with her. She had two sessions. So, I asked for more details, tell me about some of the goals that you’ve set so far? What are some of the attachments, wounds, and the injuries that the client has shared. And then she looks at me and she says, Bav, this effing client. is so effing rude. And I don’t know what to do here with this client. Boom. Counter transference.

I looked at her in a very relational way. I said, what’s happening for you right now? She turned red. She said, I’m so sorry. I never talk this way. I said, it’s okay. You can talk whatever you want. It’s a safe space, but what’s happening for you? And after the supervision, she reached out to me. She said, I figured it out. This client is reminding me of one of my female family members. Boom. She didn’t realize why she was feeling angry with this client.

So that’s a good example there of how counter transfers can be present, but we might not be aware of it. But if you’re receiving supervision and you’re being authentic in your supervisory journey things can come up and they will lead you to see what could happen. It’s happened to me before a lot in my journey as well too, where I had certain aspects in my life where I didn’t feel very stable, and it came out with the clients, subconsciously. And thankfully, I had good supervision and good supervisors at the time who supported me with that as well. And so, everything is part of counter transference. I know in the school systems and a lot of different programs, they’ll say counter transference, bad. If it happens, don’t think about it or talk to your supervisor, but never pursue it.

For me, I’m, I guess, maybe a little bit more liberal, more open minded. And I say, well, no, if it happens, let me know because there’s something there. That we need to explore and to find out what’s going on. It’s not about right. It’s not about wrong. It’s about the journey. And so, for me, that’s my approach with countertransference, especially with young therapists coming into the profession who are not realizing or understanding what’s going on. So, I create that safe space for them to engage with it. And we explore it together.

Kayla:  I love that, and I agree with you 100%. I think that we need to be able to talk about the countertransference and not be afraid of it, right? Sometimes we feel that there’s something wrong with us or our practice or, how we’re showing up. But as therapists, clinical supervision is a safe space to be able to navigate some of these concerns

Bavly: For sure. I think supervision is very important and critical for this process. I think a lot of young therapists might feel embarrassed, or don’t want to share this because they think, well, I shouldn’t be feeling this way. I would counteract that and say, no, you’re allowed to feel this way.

I’ll tell you a funny story I usually do with all my new interns that I take on. One of the first things I tell them is 90 percent of therapists fall in love with their clients. And then I usually just stay quiet just to see their reaction. And a lot of them look at me and say, no, no, no, Bavly. No, no, no, no, no. I will never do that. My next response is, well, what do you think I meant when I said fall in love? They said, well, we’re not sleeping with our clients. And I said, that’s not what I said. I didn’t say you’re going to sleep with them. I said, falling in love. And they’re like, well, what do you mean by falling in love? And then I’ll look at them and say, well, what did you think I meant? And then they usually give me a definition of being in a romantic relationship.

And I say, no falling in love in the literature means, Oh, I like this client because she’s always on time or he’s always on time. It could be many different things. And then I usually give them the stat of who acts on that. So, the research shows that 10 percent of men. We’ll act on that love, whether that’s going on a date with them or grabbing a coffee, or doing a therapy session and in a coffee shop. And 7 percent having romantic relations. And then 7 percent of women, female therapists usually act on it. So, once I give them that’s stat, they kind of breathe a sigh of relief. And say, okay, those numbers make a little bit more sense. And then I usually tell them these things and why they happen is rooted in counter transference that’s gone unchecked, or not spoken about or explored further. That’s why we do that. Because we’re working with vulnerable people. We ourselves as therapists are vulnerable as well too, we don’t have perfect lives and so usually when I lay that foundation for them at the beginning, they are much more receptive to talking to me and sharing with me things that are happening through their countertransference and we explore it and they tend to do much better with it than not.

So usually, young therapists are very afraid to talk about this. My experience that I just shared with you with that story that happened 10 years ago with that client. I had a safe space with my supervisor and my motivation was, well, I don’t want to lose my internship. So let me be honest with my supervisor. So, he doesn’t think I’m going around sharing I’m falling in love with everyone. And he was very receptive. He was very warm. He was very accepting of me and we explored it in a safe space. And it really helped my own growth and journey as a therapist back then. And so, I usually try to create a safe space for my interns and supervisees to let them know this will happen. You cannot avoid it. It will happen. So, share it with me. Let’s talk about it. I’m never going to judge you. I’m never going to look at you and say you’re wrong. This is a space for us to grow and to learn.

Kayla: Bavly, what happens if someone’s clinical supervisor is their boss? So, let’s just say that they work at a health center or a hospital or some other organization where their clinical supervisor is their boss. There may be some reservation of sharing the fact that they’re experiencing counter transference. How do you see people navigating this complex situation?

Bavly: That’s a great question, Kayla. Thank you for bringing that up. And for me and my own journey, I would actually in a very direct way, say, do not have your boss at work be also your supervisor, because the duality of that relationship, I think can potentially go south very quickly. So, if your supervisor transitions to your boss, seek another supervisor out and just have that relationship be a one standing relationship. So, either it’s your supervisor or it’s your boss. Do not combine the two together.

I find that things can get a little bit weird in regards to what can I share? What can I not? Is this a supervisory question? Is this a boss related question? So, I would not marry the two in that situation. One rule of thumb I have for myself working in a hospital setting, whenever my interns complete their practicum and internship, I do not take them off for supervision afterwards if they’re in private practice, or if they move on to another hospital setting, and that’s because I always tell them, I’ve taught you everything.

We’ve learned everything from me. Please seek supervision from someone else who will challenge you and allow you to grow and be a better therapist. Sometimes in supervision, we have to know when to end it because the relationship could grow stale. That’s a high possibility. And so, I always tell my students, so not to make it awkward for them. Our relationship ends. I like you. It’s not because I don’t, but I want you to continue your growth and your learning journey with someone else who will teach you new things. Go out and be merry and good luck with your supervisory journey. And I’m always here to consult with you as well. I’m never going away.

That’s usually the rule of thumb I have. And so, for those who are in a situation where there’s a boss and a supervisor, pick one and don’t marry the two.

Kayla: That’s such great advice. Do you have any additional tips, advice, or insights for listeners to manage counter transference when working with clients?

Bavly: One advice I usually give to all my supervisees and interns, and at the beginning, again, when I have them, they think I’m sounding a little crazy, is self-care. The question becomes, if counter transference is happening a lot for a therapist, my question for you is, what are you doing to take care of yourself?

Self-care is at the pinnacle of our career as a therapist. And I know everyone hears this, and every therapist says, yes, I’m engaging in self-care. My response to that is, how authentic is your self-care? Because if you’re genuinely and truly taking care of yourself, countertransference or countertransference moments, should not be occurring or happening a lot, for lack of better terms.

So, I always give this example about myself with my supervisees. Part of my self-care routine is basketball. I play basketball. And so, when I play basketball, that’s my oasis. That’s where I go and forget everything. That’s where I go to literally turn off and take care of my body, my mind, my soul, my spirit, and everything else that’s part of my identity.

So recently what I did was I played once a week, joined another basketball league, I played twice a week. And that’s done wonders for me, right? Physically, mentally, emotionally, and everything else in between. So, I always tell my supervisors and interns, where is your self-care? If you have a good self-care routine, that helps with managing counter transference as it comes up. Because sometimes when we don’t have a good self-care routine, we are not truly present in the sessions. And that’s where potentially, the gaps can open and widen for countertransference to take place.

So, I always go through their self-care routine. They usually don’t take me seriously at the beginning. Then halfway through their practicum journey, they’ll say, remember that conversation about self-care? I’ll be like, yeah, they’re like, yeah, I really need that right now. And so, we usually do a review. So the one tip I would give is check in with your self-care routine. What are you doing to take care of yourself and to manage that? And that will help you manage countertransferance moments as they come up as well too.

Kayla: I love that. Bavly, are you currently accepting supervisees for clinical supervision? And if so, who would be the best fit to work with you and how can they contact you?

Bavly: I am taking supervisees for supervision and for internships as well too. They can reach out to me through all my private practice work is done through Ubuntu Psychotherapy and Wellness. So, they can look me up on the website, my information is under meet the team members. So that’s ubuntupsychotherapy.ca. that’s the best way to contact me through the website.

[email protected] is the email address so they can reach out to me. I am taking a little bit of a sabbatical as I’m expecting a child with my wife and life partner. But I’m still doing a little bit of supervision. So best way is just to reach out to me. I’ll have a meet and greet with everyone and we’ll assess their needs and where they’re at and we’ll make a determination that way. So, that’s the best way to contact me and to reach out to me, to inquire about supervision.

Kayla: Oh, and congratulations on the new bundle of joy that’s on the way.

Bavly: Yes, thank you. We’re excited and looking forward to it.

Kayla: Bavly, thank you so much for joining us on the podcast today to discuss how to manage counter transference when working with clients.

Bavly: Thank you for having me, Kayla. And I appreciate all the hard work that you’re doing to promote the profession and to get a lot of content out there. So please keep doing that amazing work. And thank you again for having me today. I really appreciate it.

Kayla: And thank you everyone for tuning in to today’s episode and I hope you join me again soon on the Designer Practice Podcast.

Until next time, bye for now.