Episode 12: How to Reframe Countertransference in Your Clinical Practice with Carling Mashinter

Kayla: Welcome back to Your Clinical Supervisor’s Couch Podcast, and I’m your host, Kayla Das.

In today’s episode, Carling Mashinter, Registered Psychotherapist and clinical supervisor, is back to discuss how to reframe countertransference in your clinical practice.

Hi, Carling. Welcome back to the show. I’m so glad to have you here again.

Carling: Hi Kayla, it’s great to be back.

Kayla: And for any listener who hasn’t heard your last episode, I encourage you to go back and listen to Episode 8, How to Manage Countertransference as a Clinical Supervisor. Now today we’re taking a little bit of a spin, and we’re talking about how to reframe counter transference in your clinical practice.

But before we do, for anyone who hasn’t heard your last introduction in your previous episode, please introduce yourself and tell us a little bit about your practice and clinical supervision journey.

Carling: Yeah, so I have been a registered psychotherapist here in Ontario for about 10 years now. I’m currently One of the co-founders of Relationship Matters Therapy Centre, which is a group practice in Cambridge, Ontario. And about a few years ago, I started my clinical supervision journey and now host two therapist interns through our affordable therapy program, which means that we supervise master’s level students who are in their second year, and we offer reduced fee sessions for folks that can’t typically afford our regular fees.

Kayla: Wow, that sounds like a really great program, and maybe we’ll talk about that at the end of the episode.

First of all, what is countertransference? And how can a therapist notice that they are experiencing countertransference when working with clients?

Carling: I like to think of countertransference as the experience of when a part of us is activated, that of course holds our own lived experiences, our narratives about ourselves, about other people, about the world. Sometimes countertransference can feel a little bit painful. Sometimes countertransference is a part of us feeling lots of joy and positive emotions.

But I think going to the second part of your question there. How do we know when we’re experiencing counter transference is really, I think, paying attention to what’s happening in our body, what’s happening emotionally when we’re interacting with clients. Okay. And often in the moment, we might not be able to dig deep there. What’s going on inside but making sure we’re checking in with ourselves at the end of the session or a little bit after the session.

Kayla: Yeah. So, from your experience, how is countertransference traditionally viewed in the therapy world? And is there another way to look at or reframe countertransference?

Carling: I get the sense, and this is partly coming from my own experiences, in my studies becoming a therapist, is that there’s this problem-saturated narrative of counter transference. I got the sense it’s like, it’s important to be so cautious, do your absolute best that it doesn’t come up in your clinical work with clients.

And that always brought me a bit of a sense of shame when I experienced countertransference, which is pretty regularly still 10 years into the profession. And so, I think of reframe that has helped me and one that I invite others to consider is that countertransference might actually provide you some wisdom, which can enhance your therapeutic work with clients.

Kayla: I like that. And it makes me think about the narrative of leaving yourself at the door as a therapist. Although, there is definitely benefit in that. However, clients are coming to us because we are human, because we are people, we have experiences and emotions. And yes, we’re not going to take the therapy session and make it all about us.

But when we think of reframing countertransference, it really makes me think of that and how there’s this narrative that you can never put yourself into the session or you can never insert your own thoughts or experiences in there. Yet a lot of the clients I spoke to, and I even have my own experience with a therapist providing a self-disclosure that ultimately changed my whole direction on life for the better. And sometimes it’s a very good therapeutic tool.

Carling: I really like what you’re saying about being human and that actually being a vital part of the therapeutic process. I was thinking of historically some approaches with a blank screen approach or the blank slate approach where you said, leave yourself at the door. And don’t show any emotional expression. Relate to what the client is sharing with you. I would argue that. Actually, the emotional expression, the emotional attunement, the emotional presence a therapist can offer. So, in other words, the humanity that they can offer, can be an asset to the therapeutic process. Which in other words, how can countertransference actually be an asset in the work we do with clients.

Kayla: This also makes me think of, AI therapy and that in itself could be its own topic. So, we won’t go down kind of ethical or issues connected to that. But it goes back to that feeling of if we’re leaving ourselves at the door, and if we’re not being human in our sessions, then what makes us different than some AI tool. And I think what makes us different and is what’s going to continue to always promote the therapy world, is that no A.I., no robot can ever replace our humanity.

Carling: I’m with you. I find it hard to find words to describe the energy exchange that happens between a clinician and a client, that energy exchange, perhaps as you’re labeling as humanity, I think is irreplaceable by AI. I think AI will be great to give more black and white advice, that’s still helpful. But there’s something about the energy exchange that cannot be replicated.

Kayla: I agree a hundred percent. So, what are the benefits of reframing countertransference?

Carling: I think the primary benefit of reframing countertransference into seeing it as potential wisdom is that that’s going to invite us away from feelings of shame or criticism when we experience countertransference and move towards a place of grace, a place of curiosity. A place of actually befriending our countertransference.

And what that would look like is, okay, I felt an activation. A part of me is activated. Okay. Maybe I can connect with that part and say, hey, what happened? What’s going on there? And it’s incredible because when you take that curious approach to that part of you, that’s activated, you might learn things about what was happening in that exchange between you and the client that you didn’t consciously recognize. But perhaps the subconscious part of you that you’re now making conscious is recognizing clinical content that is going to support you in better showing up next session.

For example, if I’m feeling a sense of stuckness in my work with a client, I might ask myself, what part of me feels stuck right now to get insight into, oh, maybe there’s a way I’m showing up in session that’s not quite landing as therapeutically as I want to with the client. Let’s see if I can almost soothe the stuckness of that part. Maybe it’s history-based in my personal life that I need to attend to so that I can show up in a, maybe a more open hearted, more compassionate place to the client during our next session.

Kayla: I love that. How can therapists or even supervisors reframe counter transference in their practice?

Carling: A question that I like to ask my supervisees when they bring up worries about counter transference in our work together, I’ll invite them. I’ll say, which part of you is feeling an emotion, doesn’t matter what emotion, just a part of you that’s feeling activated, feeling an emotion about what happened in session.

Now I want you to ask that part, what would you like me to know about your experience? What felt maybe threatening or concerning to you in those moments with the client? Or, how come that part of you is feeling so much excitement about working with that client next week? All experiences are welcomed, not shamed, not put down, not criticized.

And then as we are present with that part, and we remain curious with that part. We might find different approaches, different interventions that is going to enhance the work that the therapist can do with their clients moving forward.

Kayla: It sounds like to me reframing countertransference is a way to reflect, not only on the countertransference itself, but reflect on how you can utilize pieces of it within the therapy process, as well as building your skills as you move forward.

Carling: Yeah, it’s a very effective skill to help a clinician discern what belongs in the therapeutic process with these clients and what actually maybe needs to be attended to in my personal life. I appreciate that too and not this rigid thinking about I should never experience countertransference because it’s harmful to the clinical work I do. Instead in what pieces of this are actually helpful in my work, what pieces need attention elsewhere.

Kayla: Such a great reframe in itself. Carling, you offer clinical supervision and consultation services. Can you share what clinical supervision would look like when working with you? And who would be a good fit and which jurisdictions are you able to practice in?

Carling: So, when someone’s receiving clinical supervision with me, I really appreciate integrating what’s called a person of the therapist journaling. And it’s part of the clinical supervision preparation form that I require supervisees to do. And it’s almost a guided way to connect with the parts of you that are activated when working with the client. Which, by the way, every session, there’s going to be a part of you activated, at least that’s the way I see it.

And so, I am permitted to work with any supervisee that’s practices and lives in Ontario as I’m registered with the College of Registered Psychotherapists of Ontario.

And I provide. clinical supervision to therapist interns, like I was mentioning earlier, but also a bit more seasoned, therapists who are maybe registered psychotherapy qualifying, maybe even later in their professional journey too.

Kayla: So, to reach out to Carling for clinical supervision or consultation services, check out relationshipmatterstherapy.com/clinical-supervision-consultation

or you can simply scroll down to the show notes and click on the link.

Carling, thank you so much for joining us again on the podcast today to discuss how to reframe countertransference in your clinical practice.

Carling: Thanks so much, Kayla.

Kayla: And thank you everyone for tuning into today’s episode, and I hope you join me again soon on Your Clinical Supervisor’s Couch Podcast.

Until next time, bye for now.