Episode 8: How to Manage Countertransference as a Clinical Supervisor with Carling Mashinter

Kayla: Welcome back to Your Clinical Supervisor’s Couch Podcast, and I’m your host, Kayla Das.

As a clinical supervisor, there will come a time when you experience counter transference in clinical supervision sessions with supervisees. In today’s episode, Carling Mashinter, Registered Psychotherapist and clinical supervisor, will discuss how to manage countertransference as a clinical supervisor.

Hi Carling, welcome to the show. I’m so glad to have you here today.

Carling: Hey Kayla, thanks so much for having me. I’m so excited for our conversation.

Kayla: Carling, before we dive into today’s episode, please introduce yourself and tell us a little bit about your practice and clinical supervision journey.

Carling: Sure, yeah, so I’ve been a registered psychotherapist in Ontario for actually nearly 10 years now. So I started my master’s program pretty early in life. It’s been a huge element of my personal and professional life. And then I became a clinical supervisor about three to four years ago. And currently I have a shared practice in Cambridge, Ontario with another registered psychotherapist and together we co-supervised two therapist interns who are in their master’s program. I also supervise a little bit more seasoned clinicians when they’re finished with their master’s program.

Kayla: I love that. So first of all, as a therapist, we are familiar with countertransference when it relates to clients, but for clinical supervisors, how may that show up in the supervisory relationship?

Carling: Yeah, it’s pretty clear as a clinical supervisor that you’re playing so many roles in the supervisees professional life to name a few. Sure. You’re the clinical supervisor, but that means you’re a coach. That means you’re a mentor. That means you’re a gatekeeper to the profession as a whole with the evaluative component of your responsibilities as a clinical supervisor.

And so what this means is that when we’re playing so many roles, really important roles, there is more risk for our own stuff to come up in our conversations with supervisees. What I mean by own stuff is parts of us might get activated both positively or negatively that we need to be mindful of just as in therapeutic relationships, if that’s coming into our supervisory relationships, sometimes it actually hinders the effectiveness of the work that we’re doing with our supervisees.

Sometimes it can benefit it too, but if we’re not aware of the countertransference we’re experiencing, then we can’t be so intentional with that experience.

Kayla: I can appreciate that. When we think of countertransference in the supervisory relationship, what might be some of the risks of unchecked countertransference?

Carling: Yeah, so we hold a lot of power of clinical supervisors. So one of the main risks that I try to be as careful as I can be is if I’m experiencing countertransference and if that’s coming out in the feedback that I’m providing. Then what I could be doing is harming, not only the supervisory relationship, but could really be sparking perhaps sense of shame, within the supervisee due to a bit of a misuse of power on my part as a clinical supervisor.

In my opinion, we are really responsible to help the supervisees understand their own power in the therapeutic relationship, which means we should role model that. And a part of that is to really be checking in with our own self-awareness, parts of me activated when I’m working with the supervisee. And if they are, how do I take care of that?

Kayla: I appreciate that, and I think what’s really important that you highlight is that power and balance, right? We always have to remember that even though we’re therapists. Sometimes it’s easy to think when you’re in the clinical supervisory relationship that even though they’re your clients, it’s different than a therapy client. But in saying that you have the power to prevent them from working in the field, which is a lot of power to hold when that is someone’s livelihood that you’re talking about.

Carling: Absolutely. And I believe that I’ve been on some of the receiving end of supervisors of mine, particularly in my early days as a clinician where there was unchecked counter transference and I noticed that was causing transference in me, really personalizing it with narratives of like, maybe I’m not meant to be a therapist. And like I was mentioning earlier, that’s such a core part of who I am. But like you were mentioning that power dynamic that can really get to our own self narratives as a supervisee.

Kayla: Yeah, so how might countertransference look in the supervisory relationship? Like, how would a clinical supervisor, maybe even a supervisee, notice if their clinical supervisor is experiencing or imposing countertransference upon them?

Carling: Yeah, I’m thinking of some experiences to be mindful of is like favoritism. So often there is dyadic or group clinical supervision happening. It’s pretty human to like, Oh, I like the supervisee more than this supervisee for whatever reason. Well, that in itself is counter transference. On the supervisor’s part and that is pretty easy to tune into when you’re in the dyadic format or the group format. So that would be an example that I think is probably pretty common.

Another example is because we hold so many roles as a supervisor, there’s a lot of risk and liability involved in the position we take. And what that can mean is we might be at risk of giving feedback from a fear based place. And so a supervisor might be providing feedback in a way that’s not so compassionate about how that lands on a supervisee.

So I think part of your question was, how do you notice that? And maybe how do you even address that? Because of the power imbalance, I truly think it’s up to the clinical supervisor to be the one that notices it the most. I think that’s part of your role. It’s like, if we were to say clients should be the ones initiating that conversation with therapists. Well, isn’t that a misuse of power? So I think it’s the clinical supervisor’s primary responsibility. It’s a lot less vulnerable for them to bring it up than it is for the supervisees to bring it up.

Kayla: I like that. It’s almost like asking an employee to say, hey, boss, you’re not doing X, Y, and Z right, which we would never do because of the fear of repercussions, the fear of losing our job. And although, of course, when we think of clinical supervision, it’s not directly tied, but it’s indirectly tied.

Carling: That’s it. And, I think ways that a clinical supervisor can highlight that is to check in with the supervisees. Saying something like, Hey, I noticed maybe a part of me was a bit activated with fear last meeting we had. Did you notice that supervisee? How did that impact you?

I really want to acknowledge that was perhaps seen some counter transference that I’m committed to working through so that doesn’t show up so intensely next time. And when we do things like that as a clinical supervisor. We’re role modeling ways that our supervisees can transfer that skill into their work with clients. To repair any ruptures that might come from countertransference.

Kayla: Amazing. So what are some of the benefits when clinical supervisors manage and address their countertransference?

Carling: I see it as an act of professional self-care. When we leave countertransference unchecked and I guess, we could call it uncared for. Meaning caring for the parts of us that are feeling tender related to something that happened in their supervisory relationship.

I think it’s self-care when we go, Hey, what was that about? We get curious. And often that means maybe bringing that up in your own therapeutic work with your own therapist. Maybe that means doing more self-reflective work in whatever practices you do, like journaling. I think when we uncare for those activated parts, they increase with intensity over time. These are parts of us that need us somehow, that need to be heard and seen. I’m really born from internal family systems therapy approaches on this.

Some other benefits is that it increases the effectiveness of supervision services you provide to your supervisees. You are walk in the talk, so to speak. You are helping supervisees see what it means to be humble with power. You’re helping them gain skill in understanding how can I therapeutically have a relationship with the parts of me that get activated in the work that I do. A pretty essential skill in my opinion.

Kayla: I agree a hundred percent. So, when we think of navigating the counter transference that’s showing up for clinical supervisors, do you have any strategies on what clinical supervisors could do to reflect or evaluate if they are experiencing counter transference because sometimes, we’re not aware that it’s happening. So how can a clinical supervisor become more in tuned with or when counter transference might be showing up for them?

Carling: I have a few thoughts on this. One is to maybe create a bit of a routine of debriefing with yourself after a supervision meeting. So, a routine might be just five to ten minutes. How is my body doing after that conversation? How is my mind doing? How are all parts of me doing after that conversation. That way you can almost be on a regular basis do a bit of a check in with whatever part might be activated positively or negatively, maybe even neutral. And that can be sort of a gateway in to being curious about any countertransference you might have experienced in a timely way.

Now, we don’t always have that time available to us, and sometimes even when we do that, we still aren’t quite aware of what’s going on inside. So, I really recommend accessing a supervisor mentor. And in other words, supervision of your supervision. And in supervisor mentorship, what typically happens is that you bring video clips of the supervision that you offer. And that you work together with your supervisor of supervision on what’s coming up for you. Maybe the supervisor of you will help you see things that you weren’t able to attune to on your own.

Another way that you can become more aware of your own counter transference is joining a supervision consultation group. Which means almost like a peer consultation group in the therapy world. You can connect with other supervisors and really talk about what has been difficult for you in some of the work that you do. I myself have a supervision consultation buddy, me and him, we do regular touch points on perhaps some counter transference either he or I are experiencing in our roles as supervisors. 

Kayla: Those are great tips and strategies and I’m even thinking about the whole clinical supervision of your clinical supervision. And I think sometimes we think that if someone has been in the field for 20, 30 years. Do they really need clinical supervision?

And I think the real thing here is that to acknowledge that we can all grow, we can all build our skills, we can all have that reflection or that almost outside party helping us look in. Because it doesn’t matter how long you’ve been in therapy or how long you’ve been providing clinical supervision or how long you’ve been doing anything in life. We do become blind to our blind spots. So having someone outside kind of looking in can be really helpful. Doesn’t matter if you’ve been in practice one year, five years, 10 years, 20 years. 

Carling: I completely agree. I think when– well, I’ll speak for myself, but when I consider myself as a more seasoned practitioner, the risk of that narrative is, yeah, I know it all. Yeah, I’m so self-aware. And listen, I do think I’m self-aware. I do think I’m a pretty good therapist. And also, I will always have blind spots.

That’s part of being human, at least from my perspective. In other words, we can call that humility, that actually I don’t know all the answers, not even within myself. I don’t know every part of me so well all the time. I guess I encourage I encourage us supervisors to keep that type of mindset.

Kayla: I love that. So, kind of going off our last question is, do you have any tips or strategies to help clinical supervisors navigate countertransference when they realize that it’s showing up for them? 

Carling: Firstly, give yourself some grace. It can be almost painful at times to recognize, “ah, okay, I’m experiencing counter transference here.” And I think if you can offer yourself some compassion and grace from the get go, that’s going to help you attain curiosity towards that part in internal family system therapy, we would call that befriending that part of you. And I think that really provides you more space to attend kindly and even effectively to the counter transference. It’s not about shaming yourself. It’s not about even feeling shame about that. Perhaps it’s a narrative of, Oh, right. I’m still human here. I’m still incredible at my role while I’m also human. And this comes up. And I really think that sets the stage when you approach it that way. It sets the stage for you to help supervisees facilitate that type of kind mindset towards themselves.

Kayla: I love that. Carling, you offer clinical supervision and consultation services. Can you share what clinical supervision would look like when working with you and who would be a good fit? And also, which jurisdictions do you practice?

Carling: Yeah, so I offer clinical supervision in our affordable therapy program, which is where we accept one to two students, master’s level students, and as therapist interns. And so, I provide weekly supervision in a dyadic format. Through that program. I also provide clinical supervision in a dyadic or individual format for Registered Psychotherapists that are qualifying or even individually practicing registered psychotherapists. The jurisdiction that I am qualified to work in is within Ontario. And this is based on the College of Registered Psychotherapists of Ontario recommendations.

Kayla: Great. So, if you’re looking for clinical supervision in Ontario, reach out to Carling at relationshipmatterstherapy.com/clinical-supervision-consultation

Or you can also simply scroll down to the show notes and click on the link.

Carling, thank you so much for joining us on the podcast today to discuss how to manage counter transference as a clinical supervisor.

Carling: Thanks so much Kayla, that was a great conversation.

Kayla: And thank you everyone for tuning into today’s episode, and I hope you join me again soon on Your Clinical Supervisor’s Couch Podcast.

Until next time, bye for now.